
The Incredible Hulk #331 and #332 is a two-part slugfest guest-starring an army of Avengers that get the crap kicked out of them by The Hulk. Despite being one of the founding members (kinda) of The Avengers, one of The Hulk’s favorite pastimes is beating up Avengers, and in these issues, he does just that.
Affable Al Milgrom wrote and drew this story about a rampaging Hulk who has been physically separated from Bruce Banner through the miracles of comic book science. Without the tempering influence of Banner’s personality, The Hulk goes ape shit and starts trashing Unluckyville, USA. The Avengers show up – all of them – and the mindless, rampaging Hulk whomps on them for two whole issues. I mean, he absolutely molests them. It’s a little embarrassing, really.
Affable Al Milgrom wrote and drew this story about a rampaging Hulk who has been physically separated from Bruce Banner through the miracles of comic book science. Without the tempering influence of Banner’s personality, The Hulk goes ape shit and starts trashing Unluckyville, USA. The Avengers show up – all of them – and the mindless, rampaging Hulk whomps on them for two whole issues. I mean, he absolutely molests them. It’s a little embarrassing, really.
I really love these issues because they convey an epic scale of violence and are just chock-full of superheroes. it's adolescent fun. Milgrom draws dynamic, bold action scenes and his composition is excellent. The only thing I don’t like is the way he draws The Hulk’s nose – it’s this cute little button nose that just doesn’t work for me. He looks like a freak.
Anyway, the big theme of this story is whether it’s right to use lethal force on The Hulk. The Avengers, who have a strict (read: stupid) code against killing, debate the morality of destroying The Hulk. Captain America, of course, vocalizes and embodies The Avengers ethical struggle – which means he stands around and orates while The Hulk is dropping buildings on his team.
I don’t know what The Avengers are so worried about. They say that they may have to kill The Hulk for the sake of the world, but does The Hulk actually ever KILL anybody? No. He operates in a world of Hulk Physics, where no action, no matter how destructive, can kill a human being.
Take Unluckyville. The Hulk tears through the town like a green, button-nosed tornado, seemingly destroying every single standing structure, from Kwik-E Marts to dog houses. Nobody dies, not even stubborn dogs who stayed behind after the evacuation order was given. Captain America even thanks The Lord that there were no serious injuries. Just a couple stubbed toes or something.
Anyway, the big theme of this story is whether it’s right to use lethal force on The Hulk. The Avengers, who have a strict (read: stupid) code against killing, debate the morality of destroying The Hulk. Captain America, of course, vocalizes and embodies The Avengers ethical struggle – which means he stands around and orates while The Hulk is dropping buildings on his team.
I don’t know what The Avengers are so worried about. They say that they may have to kill The Hulk for the sake of the world, but does The Hulk actually ever KILL anybody? No. He operates in a world of Hulk Physics, where no action, no matter how destructive, can kill a human being.
Take Unluckyville. The Hulk tears through the town like a green, button-nosed tornado, seemingly destroying every single standing structure, from Kwik-E Marts to dog houses. Nobody dies, not even stubborn dogs who stayed behind after the evacuation order was given. Captain America even thanks The Lord that there were no serious injuries. Just a couple stubbed toes or something.
Behold, the power of Hulk Physics:
Good thing every last person left town before The Hulk leveled it!
I know, I know – it’s a frickin’ comic book. And I agree, if the plot followed logic then The Hulk turns into this horrible Godzilla-type monster responsible for the deaths of thousands, and then you have a whole different story that would probably not be as fun to read. But perhaps – and I’m just throwing this out there – that perhaps portraying victimless violence in any medium is not the most intellectually and ethically honest thing to do.
Bear with me here, I’m taking a left turn into Hippyland.
I’m not saying that kids shouldn’t read The Hulk or violent comics, or that comics are just for kids, or that we should censor stuff, or that people with red hair are inherently evil. I am saying that showing violence without consequence is a little weird for me. Like having your cake and eating it, too.
This has always kind of bugged me, even when I was a kid, although I couldn’t articulate it. Remember the G.I. Joe cartoon? For every Cobra jet the Joes shot down, the pilot would always bail out. I hated that! A plane would erupt into a huge fireball, and then – plink! – you’d see a little white chute pop open and the Cobra pilot floats safely to Earth. What about The A-Team? Did they ever actually hit anything? Dirk Benedict would unload a clip of 9mm in a biker bar, just hosing the room down with bullets, and every single biker would dodge for cover. There was something so lame about that to me when I was a kid – did the people who produced those shows think I was stupid?
I’m not saying that G.I. Joe should get all Tarantino – I don’t need to see a gut-shot Duke slowly dying in a tangle of barbed wire. Actually, wait. Yes I do, that would be kind of cool.
What I am saying is that portraying violence without any victims is kind of stupid. You should at least be honest about it – people die when they get shot, or when their cars flip over fifty times, or when big green monsters push over their apartment buildings. Dogs die, too. What about the dogs?
I know, I know, then it wouldn’t be escapist fun. I should just drop it. I read The Hulk when I was a little kid, and I turned out okay. Except for The Rage, of course…
Back to the comic: The Hulk pounds and pounds on The Avengers, miraculously without seriously injuring any of them. You’d think The Wasp would get tagged by flying debris or something. The Hulk does make Wonder Man freak out like a little girl:
“Keep off me, Hulk! Keep off!” Man, I would hang my head in shame if I was a superhero and I wigged out like that. Butch up, Wonder Man.
In the panel below, The Avengers swamp The Hulk. Notice that The Hulk is beating up on Wonder Man yet again. The guy is probably crying by now. I like this panel because it looks like Mockingbird is braining Hercules with her battle staff:
Eventually The Avengers all dog pile on The Hulk and subdue him. You see, in this current non-Banner incarnation, The Hulk actually becomes weaker the angrier he gets – something like that, anyway. But in order to subdue the beast, The Avengers have to become savage themselves!
That’s it! Give in to your inner Hulk, Avengers, your gamma-irradiated Id!
And there it is: yet another city-destroying superhero battle in the Mighty Marvel Manner. And not just a slugfest, but also a meditation on the morality of killing and of the savage blood-lust that lurks within us all.
Thank God nobody was killed!
And there it is: yet another city-destroying superhero battle in the Mighty Marvel Manner. And not just a slugfest, but also a meditation on the morality of killing and of the savage blood-lust that lurks within us all.
Thank God nobody was killed!
57 comments:
"I know, I know – it’s a frickin’ comic book. And I agree, if the plot followed logic then The Hulk turns into this horrible Godzilla-type monster responsible for the deaths of thousands, and then you have a whole different story that would probably not be as fun to read."
And that comic book would be called The Ultimates.
Well I was going to make a comment about people actually dying in Hulk rampages, and Scott beat me to it.
As for Wonder Man freaking out, you're the one saying the Hulk "absolutely molests them" If I thought the Hulk was about to molest me (and probably follow that up with ripping my head off, which I would survive, somehow), I'd freak out too.
Wonder-Man deserves what he gets for wearing that awful, awful costume.
Butch up indeed.
Was the costume meant to be a costume? Or is it just something he happened to always be wearing?
I love the Mockingbird-braining-Hercules panel solely for the view of Tigra from behind (and what a behind!). Also, what the hell is Hawkeye doing, stabbing Greenie with his arrow? Some archer!
And I know the Hulk is bringing out the worst in them all, but Mockingbird is freaking spitting, she's so mad! Spitting!
One of the things bugging me about comics is that superheroes often get puched so hard they fly back for a few blocks, or through a wall, or whatever, and then just get right up with no injuries. That's fine if they guy flying through the wall is Superman or The Thing or Captain Atom or something, who basically have super-toughness as a power.
But I want to know why heroes like and Cyclops or Storm, who may have some kind of superpower, get punched all the time, but rarely seem to get injuries. How come they never get punched so bad they get cuts over their eyes, or cauliflower ear, or a broken jaw. To put a point on it, if somebody is super fast or can fly or shoot lasers from their eyes, it does not necessarily follow that they are super tough, and if someone who is not super tough gets punched by someone who is super strong, there should be injuries.
On a meta level, I'm guessing it is lazy thinking or lack of training on the part of writers or artists, because some depictions of superheroes (say, for example, Batman) do include them getting injured, while perhaps others do not.
But really, if people are depicted going around able to shoot laser from their eyes or whatever, why my suspention of disbelief waits for lack-of-injuries to kick in, I don't know.
The cover to #332 looks like that scene in Spider-Man 2 where Spider-Man saves Phil LaMarr's train.
"He's...just a goliath. No more ragey than my son."
"Don't worry, Hulk. We won't tell."
This seals something for me: Ultimate Hulk, on the other hand, embodies Banner's Inner Horn as much as his Inner Rage. Original Hulk is All Anger, which is why he tries to mulch Tigra, instead of getting all "HOW FURRY LADY DOIN'?!"
Didn't this story give us the Bruce/Betty Wedding - and, for that matter, Rick-Hulk.
Now that's a whole 'nother story...
//\Oo/\\
Despite being one of the founding members (kinda) of The Avengers...
Tsk. Hulk is a founding Avenger, no "kinda" about it. It's Cap who's the "kinda founder", the guy who wasn't there at the start, but was the missing piece that really made the team.
The only thing I don’t like is the way he draws The Hulk’s nose - it’s this cute little button nose that just doesn’t work for me.
Perez does exactly the same thing with Thor. It's hard to take the Thunder God seriously when he's got his cute little nosey.
I don’t need to see a gut-shot Duke slowly dying in a tangle of barbed wire.
Didn't that happen in the movie? I seem to recall that the original US release had a "he got better" epilogue, but I'm pretty sure that the British edition (Action Force: The Movie) left the bugger for dead at the end.
And regarding Wonder Man's costume, while I like it for ironic-comedic value, would the turtleneck/safari suit/rocket belt combo have been any better?
What I like about #332's cover is that Iron Man is clearly not pulling his weight (literally), and moreover, he's looking out at the reader.
Al Milgrom, theres a name that takes me back. This guy was the defacto go to marvel artist to go when a comic was in between artist or someone couldnt finish an issue. I remember these issues because its was easily Milgrom's best work ever (though maybe thats not saying much...). Im sure as a relief man, he had a more rushed schedule than both, but my God, did this guy not do some of the crappiest looking marvel work in the 80's? I wonder if he just had some time to do a decent job or if someone was helping him?
Poor Al, I dont mean to dump on him but I remember opening up any number of marvel comics and groaning when the name appeared. I knew I was in store for some piss-poor artistry.
*****Id love dave to put together a "Worst Drawn Mainstream Comics Ever" week. May vote would be a particular issue of the late 80's line Marvel Comics Presents (or one of those three stories an issue comics). There was a Speedball story that as a preteen I literally thought I could go home and re-draw better that night. When preteens gather to mock your hard work, its time to find a new line of work. Id love it if Dave or anyone else could dig up the issue. Im wildly off topic, but I swear to the Gods, ever panel of that thing is comic gold.
-thebridgeisover
"Keep off me, Hulk! Keep off me!"
Lord, that's some scary shit. Possibly the most unsettling thing in any Hulk comic.
One of the things bugging me about comics is that superheroes often get puched so hard they fly back for a few blocks, or through a wall, or whatever, and then just get right up with no injuries.
But you're forgetting that after you get thrown through a brick wall, you can simply shake it off.
"Didn't that happen in the movie? I seem to recall that the original US release had a "he got better" epilogue, but I'm pretty sure that the British edition (Action Force: The Movie) left the bugger for dead at the end."
Wasn't there some issue of the comic in which some of the Joes were captured and stuck in a Cobra concentration camp? And it ended with them all getting killed, with the climax being Quick Kick losing his mind and screaming "YO JOE! YO JOE!" before getting gunned down?
I dunno, maybe I just dreamed about it...
Remember that there are actually two ways of telling if you're in a What If story. The first, and most common, is to check whether Aunt May happens to be dead, but the second and almost as reliable one is to check and see if anyone was killed in the latest Hulk rampage...
And regarding Wonder Man's costume, while I like it for ironic-comedic value, would the turtleneck/safari suit/rocket belt combo have been any better?
That's a great description of that costume. I think it was somehow supposed to tie in to his day job as a Hollywood stuntman - because as we know, turtlenecks and safari jackets are the de facto outfit for all Hollywood stuntmen.
I recently re-acquired my childhood comic collection. Flipping through them, I was shocked to learn that Al Milgrom drew about 75% of Marvel's output in the mid-80's.
This seals something for me: Ultimate Hulk, on the other hand, embodies Banner's Inner Horn as much as his Inner Rage. Original Hulk is All Anger, which is why he tries to mulch Tigra, instead of getting all "HOW FURRY LADY DOIN'?!"
Doesn't the Ultimate Hulk also go around eating people as well? So does that mean that he also embodies Banner's Inner Cannibal?
Wait. You mean all red-headed people aren't evil?
http://ebaumsworld.com/gijoe.html
:-)
The movie sorta made Hulk into a King Kong/Godzilla parallel and I know that wasn't all that fun to watch.
Godzilla's alot of fun on his own, though usually the bad guy who's good when he had to take down a monster who was even worse. The early Hulk stuff had that angle going for them too but to a lesser degree. I can't really say the world's better off for having seen the Hulk eat somebody.
Wow that was overly serious...
So you think Iron Man was all "I am so not touching that" when it came time for all the Avengers to lift the Hulk on that cover there?
I was so diggin this post on Hulk physics (by the way have you seen the Dan Slott's Thing 1- Grimm wears Hulk slippers!)
...then 'red-headed people are evil', what a stereotype! No, we're fiery, unstable, wild heathens, to set you straight (hee).
By some weird synchronicity I just did a piece about sanitised violence over at my blog. It always makes me think of the A-Team too. I could never understand how they were supposed to be such a crack army team when they could never hit anything. Or if they never intended to hit anything why they brought all those automatic weapons in the first place.
I love sanatized violence. Don't forget, in comic book world, all superheros can hit people JUST ENOUGH to send them to sweet, blissful unconsciousness.
Yes, in comic book world, there is no such thing as traumatic brain injury.
If this wasn't the case, Batman and Spider-man would have a body count in the triple digits.
I like how Al Milgrom appears to be taking his cues from George Perez in that one panel with the reporter who goes BLAH BLAH BLAH AVENGERS SUCK FOR PUNCHING THE HULK BACK.
Interesting commentary about superhero violence here, actually. One of the things that's really bugged me during Infinite Crisis is Wonder Woman's necksnappage count, which is exactly one over what I would consider a "reasonable" number. The justifications given by so many people - it suits her personality, she's a warrior, god I love watching women beat the shit out men - always struck me as inadequate. In my mind superheroes, especially the Marvel and DC variety, don't kill and that's one of the things that makes them better that the people they face down.
Of course, this leads to cludgy bits like "Oh, thank god they evacuated Topeka before the Hulk and Thor got drunk and started punching the crap out of each other!" but I'll take that in a piece of four-color pulp in a heartbeat if it means I don't have to deal with the image of Iron Man pulling bits of The Mandarin out of the chinks in his armor.
The thing that finally turned me off to Busiek's Avengers was an issue where an alien powerhouse (or maybe Kang?) destroyed a huge building in downtown NYC to demonstrate his bad-assness. Of course, your first thought is "man, this guy just racked up a body count of hundreds or thousands in under ten seconds", and then one of the Avengers remarks that it's a good thing that building was conveniently abondoned. So disappointing. (no, not the lack of death, but the cheapness of the story-telling)
"Didn't that happen in the movie? I seem to recall that the original US release had a "he got better" epilogue, but I'm pretty sure that the British edition (Action Force: The Movie) left the bugger for dead at the end."
I can't believe I know this but...the Transformers and GI Joe movies were both developed at the same time, and it was decided by the powers that be (Hasbro?) that both Duke and Optimus Prime would be killed off to make room for newer characters (and their toys). The Transformers movie was released to theaters, and the negative reaction to Prime's death was so overwhelming that the Duke's death in the GI Joe movie was simply changed to a coma (although no scenes were changed in the movie).
"Wonder-Man deserves what he gets for wearing that awful, awful costume."
Wait a minute, let me get this straight...you guys are making fun of this version of Wonder Man's costume? Do you not remember the gay Christmas tree Wonder Man costume?
Coincidentally, designed by and drawn by Al Milgrom, in West Coast Avengers. Man, that dude just wasn't a good penciler at all. I liked his inking over other people's art, but as a penciler...yeesh.
Can I just point out the ridiculousness of Mockingbird in the Avengers vs. Hulk mosh pit? I mean, I'm all for being a team player, but this should be a question on the written portion of the Avengers entrance exam:
You're facing a creature who's shrugging off punches from Hercules. You're a normal-strength gymnast armed with a stick. Do you
a) Help evacuate civilians;
b) Try to blind the creature or do something equally sneaky;
c) Crack open a Snickers bar;
d) Get in the way of the heavy hitters so you can whack it on the head with your stick
Berwin: Then again, 8 issues later Kang wiped out 50,000 people in downtown DC.
>Kevin Church said:
> don't have to deal with >the image of Iron Man >pulling bits of The >Mandarin out of the >chinks in his armor.
HA--chinks is perhaps not the best word to have used in that description.
WANTED:
More panels of Tigra's backside.
Minor Grammatical Quibble: It's "eat your cake and have it too." Having your cake and eating it, in that order, is easy. One of those things that's stuck out at me ever since William Safire pointed it out in one of his "On Language" columns.
And speaking of overstuffed, pompous killjoys (ahem), who the hell is the orator in the "Mockingbird braining Hercules" panel? My money is on either the Vision or Thor, but why aren't they participating in the dogpile on the Hulk? Maybe Thor is too busy rocking or something.
re: consequence-less violence vs. Kurt Busiek. It's also worth pointing out that Busiek had Ultron kill an entire Eastern European country in the "Ultron Unlimited" arc, which led to a massive UN military invasion led by the Avengers. The story even got a "F@%k yeah!" moment on this blog.
There was a "Hulk Trashes the MU" issue I remember reading in the Shop-Rite as a wee lad, which had an endless stream of heroes getting owned by the Hulk, ending when Dr. Strange sent the Hulk into a Ditko-esque French curve weirdverse because it was too dangerous to keep him on Earth. I remember watching the Hulk catch Iron Fist's iron fist, which led to a moment like when Bugs Bunny plugs a cork in Elmer Fudd's shotgun. Power Man tries to get some payback and gets slugged through about 5 skyscrapers as a result. It occurs to me now that #332 might have been the issue I read.
re: WW and killing. I love how the people who say WW should be like the tough warrior chick of Kingdom Come neatly but entirely miss the fact that the end of the book repudiates that whole stance.
ct is right about the Joe movie. As for the comic book, death was a regular happening, not only for anonymous Cobras, but occassionally major characters would get killed.
Quick Kick, Doc, Sneak Peek, almost all of Battleforce 2000, and several others bought it in a fictional middle eastern country.
One of the reasons I love the show Megas XLR is that when they end up demolishing half the town (and they usually do), many of the destroyed buildings have giant signs of them that say things like "CONVENTIENTLY ABANDONED FACTORY". Staying "kid-friendly" but not taking it sitting down.
More panels of Tigra's backside.
Tigra bleaches: she doesn't wax.
ERGO: TAGNUTS.
(see also: Sasquatch, Beast, Wolverine, The Wasp)
//\Oo/\\
You're crazy! Al Milgrom rocks!
Edward:
You are thinking of issue #300, a double-sized issue published a couple years earlier. Really a great and fun issue.
This one was a lot of fun too. Al Milgrom was a decent artist, about the same level as other Marvel 80's artists like Ron Frenz, Keith Pollard, or early JRJR. He had a run on Spectacular Spider-Man with Jim Mooney inks that's personally very enjoyable.
Milgrom also knew what good (for Marvel) art looked like, as evidenced by his editorship of Marvel Fanfare.
But Milgrom will always be best known for his role as the artist/inker who worked on art that was near deadline. One good (= bad) example is the Paul Smith on X-Factor in 40's. Milgrom inked this run (along with the preceding Art Adams issue) and it looks awful. I don't think it's a coincidence that Smith and Adams are known as two of the slowest artists in the business.
Anyway, Dave, thanks for more memories.
Best Dave's Long Box EVER!
Edward, I believe that story kicked off the whole Hulk-doing-Sliders arc, where he jumped around the multiverse for months on end. That's around the time Mignola was drawing the book, as I recall.
And seconded on the GRATUITOUS TIGRA BUTT SHOTS WEEK at the Long Box. Although now that I think of it, it's kinda creepy.
Hum,
I'm surprised no one has noticed yet, but these issues are actually #321 and #322.
Remember when the Hulk tossed two hunters across a lake so hard they skipped like stones and slammed into a tree?
I always assumed they were killed and their deaths were Marvel's greatest subtext secret.
Keep off me, Dave! Keep off!!!
isnt there a nice f@ck yeah moment in these books, well I liked it when the little japanese nerd scientist uses her aikido to trip the hulk.
I mean I know for real it's like trying to judo throw a train, but man it was cool to my 8 year old brain.
BTW, for a great "Godzilla killing people in buildings moment," I recommend renting "GMK." That movie has an amazing scene with Godzilla *unmistakeably* killing people in a hospital. It's brilliant.
Oh, and don't watch that one on Sci-Fi Network. They cut that scene, because they hate everything that brings joy to me.
Yes, I'm a complete geek. Thanks.
Wonder Man fan here, the Hulk issue you refer to was written by Allen Milgrom who drew the West Coast Avengers were Steve Englehart milked the stage fright subplot started by Jim Shooter shortly after Wonder Man was resurrected in the mid 70's. He was supposed to have overcomed that fear of dying and move on after the Avengers Korvac Saga (the first company wide crossover at Marvel Comics). Somehow Englehart found amusing rehashing the whole thing in his WCA series where Wonder Man conquered his fears one more time by beating the Abomination (Hulk's toughest villain who has KO Hulk on many times) and then Milgrom goes and uses it again in his short Hulk stint. To the character's defense he never ran from the fight, you can see that he is feeling scared but he is still wrestling mindless Hulk unarmed and he was the most unexperienced of the group's strongmen at the time. Since then a couple of stories have been written where he faces the Hulk to a standstill, notably in his solo series in the 90's and he comes close to beating him; the stage fright is gone.
Ugh, I need an "edit post" button. Sorry, "The Korvac Saga" wasn't the first company wide crossover, it was the first exercise that lead to "Contest of Champions" and then "Secret Wars". "Secret Wars" was the first company wide crossover.
All of Wonder Man's suits completely suck.
Especially the new star dust rolled around in a dirt pan suit created from pure original suit plus space dirt that makes you turn blue. Or did he "do" Cobalt Man or something.
And don't the covers pretty much give away what happened in 322?
Wonder Man sucks
Posting more than two years later, but Wonder Man's freakout just makes me think of "Don't tase me, bro! Don't tase me!"
希望大家都會非常非常幸福~「朵朵小語‧優美的眷戀在這個世界上,最重要的一件事,就是好好愛自己。好好愛自己,你的眼睛才能看見天空的美麗,耳朵才能聽見山水的清音。好好愛自己,你才能體會所有美好的東西,所有的文字與音符才能像清泉一樣注入你的心靈。好好愛自己,你才有愛人的能力,也才有讓別人愛上你的魅力。而愛自己的第一步,就是切斷讓自己覺得黏膩的過去,以無沾無滯的輕快心情,大步走向前去。愛自己的第二步,則是隨時保持孩子般的好奇,願意接受未知的指引;也隨時可以拋卻不再需要的行囊,一路雲淡風輕。親愛的,你是天地之間獨一無二的旅人,在陽光與月光的交替之中瀟灑獨行。
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