tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post8699026956296118074..comments2023-11-05T03:25:39.077-08:00Comments on Dave's Long Box: The Flip TestDavid Campbellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06561127611004920764noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-49227216183775277382017-11-26T03:56:14.036-08:002017-11-26T03:56:14.036-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287821785570247118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-24348296442988307282012-03-28T06:21:54.132-07:002012-03-28T06:21:54.132-07:00I like this post a lot and it contains a lot of gr...I like this post a lot and it contains a lot of great points and obsessions!<br /><br /><a href="http://www.logodesignuniverse.com" rel="nofollow">Buy a logo</a>Knox Karterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09529605912425314220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-72425826488481141122010-07-15T20:26:53.726-07:002010-07-15T20:26:53.726-07:00徵信社徵信
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The flip test merely tells me if a book is paced for trade or if I'm going to get my money's worth in terms of story and art. A quick flip through a comic cannot tell you if the characters are nuanced or the dialogue is crisp or the art is lovingly rendered. What it can tell you is whether or not the comic has enough "comic" to be worth shelling out a couple bucks.<BR/><BR/>I don't think I was clear enough in my post, because some folks have misconstrued what I mean. I happen to like Bendis' writing, for instance. That Peter Parker/MJ sitting on the bed talking issue? That was some well written shit, it really was. However, it's not what I want to read in a 22 page comic book. As part of a trade? Sure. But if I'm paying over two bucks for some entertainment? It better be more than one scene. That's like watching a quarter of a movie but paying full price. The New Avengers plane crash issue? It was well written, but it was ONE SCENE. They talk on a plane, it crashes. Again, fine if it's part of a trade, but I want more from my floppies.<BR/><BR/>That's what the Flip Test is. It's not a shallow assesment of quality (although we all do that every day), it's a quick way to measure whether I'm getting enough story for my dollar. I really, really hate "pacing for trade" writing and that's what this is all about. <BR/><BR/>There, hope that makes sense.David Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06561127611004920764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-2670791343074581372007-10-19T13:59:00.000-07:002007-10-19T13:59:00.000-07:00I must disagree. Hollywood sucks and the more comi...I must disagree. Hollywood sucks and the more comics return back to their stupid-ass fight-o-the-month roots, the more I mourn the fact that the good parts of the 80s didn't stick. I was born in the mid 80s and I thought comics were the shit. By the time I was 16, I didn't like most new comics at the time, and it WASN'T because puberty hit and I suddenly was more interested in getting laid. It was because the 90s biz embraced some of the worst of the 80s. Low, low quality tripe, and as a kid, I honestly didn't have time nor the money to spend on ANY comics except the trades. My parents didn't allow it. Trades of filler art and bad dialog frustrated me to no end. I turned my back on comics and became a bibliophile, and I've never looked back but once.<BR/><BR/>I'm of a mind that they should just do trade paperbacks instead of comic issues. I know I just blasphemed, but hear me out. <BR/><BR/>Back before The Day of the 70s, 80s, and 90s, when my older friends and I grew up, comics had repetitive plots, soap opera dialog-as-exposition, and great covers and sometimes atrocious inner pages. They were mostly kitsch. Be honest. How much of 'Superman is a Dick' type tripe stole away your hardearned cash as a kid, just because you were a loyal customer? <BR/><BR/>Instead of wasting our money on the now-low demand one-issue comic book (everyone I know waits for the trade paperback, because issues paced for trade tend to be a lot higher quality in the story, because, hey, the art carries the genre and you don't necessarily have to worry about it), why not just save everyone money, extend the deadlines, and elevate the quality of the books? <BR/><BR/>Why CAN'T we have "graphic novels" in a literal sense, not a hoity-toity sense? There could be one printing, and it's trade, and the story took a year to write and something like 6 months to ink and color, and thus every page is lush, perfectly paced, and it's as if Watchmen is suddenly the standard, not the acception, to the industry.<BR/><BR/>Wouldn't that be nice?<BR/><BR/>I want my comic books to be goddamn novels with pictures. If idiots stopped reading comics (I'm gonna wish idots would stop being catered to in video games, Sci-Fi and Fantasy novels, and movies, too while I'm at it), all the better. More quality for me. I'll pay any price--any price--for a good story. But it has to be good. I'd spend 40$ on a 300 page comic book trade if it was genuinely good.<BR/><BR/>But if it merely passed your mediocre flip test? No. We'll just seem more crap and never demand better.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-87093265554077465382007-10-16T14:18:00.000-07:002007-10-16T14:18:00.000-07:00Thor could never gripst thine shit wearing mirrorb...Thor could never gripst thine shit wearing mirrorball longjohns, no matter how Vahalla-worthy the fight, nor mellifluous the skald's tongue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-25425117674912841792007-10-16T05:53:00.000-07:002007-10-16T05:53:00.000-07:00"The flip test is fine for certain books, but if e..."The flip test is fine for certain books, but if every big 2 comic followed that same format then, I guess it would be the mid to late 90's again"<BR/><BR/>More like the 60s through 80s. The 90s would fail the flip test because they'd be all action and no talking at all.<BR/><BR/>I more or less agree with Dave's point. It sounds crude but if you know how to quickly appraise an artist's storytelling, you can almost immediately tell if a comic is worth the money or not. I wouldn't necessarily compare it to testing screenplays, though, because movie scripts are pretty long compared to floppy comics and you really can't get a feel for a film script's quality with a brief flip test.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-38613415244660495482007-10-15T16:55:00.000-07:002007-10-15T16:55:00.000-07:00I'm sorry, Dave. I gotta disagree with you on thi...I'm sorry, Dave. I gotta disagree with you on this one, buddy.<BR/>The flip test sounds like an equation for a mediocre book every time. I agree that I want more from my comics than talk, fight, splash page, splash page, talk.<BR/><BR/>There's a lot to be said for building characterization and taking your time to tell a great story. The flip test is fine for certain books, but if every big 2 comic followed that same format then, I guess it would be the mid to late 90's again.Jayzgamehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04510052443082207902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-76412640507314766362007-10-15T07:15:00.000-07:002007-10-15T07:15:00.000-07:00Blue Beetle is a snoozefest. Even the character i...Blue Beetle is a snoozefest. Even the character is badly designed.<BR/><BR/>I'll take the alien invasion conspiracies in my New Avengers and my brooding Norseman in my Thor.<BR/><BR/>Both of those have been excellent so far as showing the dynamics between different characters.<BR/><BR/>Blue Beetle does none of that.<BR/><BR/>I don't have the attention span of a goldfish so I can handle a few issues of talking and build-up before the big fight scene.<BR/><BR/>It makes me more interested in the issues.<BR/><BR/>If I wanted to see a slugfest every week with poorly designed and poorly thought out characters, I'll watch wrestling.<BR/><BR/>I can understand the flip test working for a screenplay as they are quite wordy and heavy on page numbers.<BR/><BR/>However, that won't work for a 22 page comic book.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-85337032890278938832007-10-12T18:14:00.000-07:002007-10-12T18:14:00.000-07:00Your flip test works because New Avengers and Thor...Your flip test works because New Avengers and Thor both are terrible, but Blue Beetle is awesome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-64649445205708505322007-10-12T16:13:00.000-07:002007-10-12T16:13:00.000-07:00A Velvet Marauder movie would be awesome on top of...A Velvet Marauder movie would be awesome on top of awesome wrapped in coolJon the Intergalactic Gladiatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13758095794354686723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-76557737667315931082007-10-12T10:32:00.000-07:002007-10-12T10:32:00.000-07:00Oh Dave, whatever you do, please make sure that th...Oh Dave, whatever you do, please make sure that the Velvet Marauder screenplay that you are DEFINITIVELY writing passing the douchebag Hollywood flip test.<BR/><BR/>I SO need to see Ben Affleck playing McKenzie peeing in his suit after bowling!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-69703619217659006562007-10-12T04:14:00.000-07:002007-10-12T04:14:00.000-07:00I'm astonished at whoever said "you're passing up ...I'm astonished at whoever said "you're passing up Thor and New Avengers for Blue Beetle?" Well, yes. Because the current <I>Thor</I> is intriguing but has major flaws, <I>New Avengers</I> is tedious and irrelevant, and <I>Blue Beetle</I> is just great comics. I don't see why the shock. BB is one of the best things DC is putting out at the moment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-77023121122011212332007-10-12T02:33:00.000-07:002007-10-12T02:33:00.000-07:00"In a comic, if you need a jolt, you can always th..."In a comic, if you need a jolt, you can always throw in rocket-powered monkey ninjas and send them and your protagonist back to ninth-century Russia to build the World's Greatest Cheesecake in a desperate attempt to prevent a thousand-foot tall statue of Huggy Bear from destroying every Thursday ever."<BR/><BR/>Man I would so buy that comic :DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-90623052005981875552007-10-11T18:42:00.000-07:002007-10-11T18:42:00.000-07:00String Quintet in C major said...The strength of (...<I><B>String Quintet in C major said...</B><BR/>The strength of (a member of) a creative team, internet reviews and buzz (the online equivalent, for our rather small community, of word-of-mouth), etc. provide far better clues in the neverending quest for gold nuggets in the turd pool.</I> <BR/><BR/>Thus increasing the probability that you will wind up having your $#!@ gripped, rather than gripping $#!@.<BR/><BR/>The purpose of my earlier question RE: She-Hulk was this: in 2004, She-Hulk was Dan Slott's break out title. He wasn't a well-known guy then, so the Slott-factor wouldn't get him on your pull list. Issue 1 has a lot of talking and maybe two pages of fighting (Avengers vs. MODOK and AIM + Blizzard - in SPAAACE!). Issue 2 has a lot of talking and a very distinct un-fight between Danger Man and She-Hulk. Issue 3 is more no fighting as She-Hulk moves in to the Excelsior, moves out of Avengers Mansion, and has a ghost imprisoned for attempting to have his girlfriend falsely convicted of his murder.<BR/><BR/>For balance between dialogue and action, She-Hulk started off with no great shakes. For balance between totally awesome and fantastic, She-Hulk was great.<BR/><BR/>Possibly the exception that proves the rule, but then, I like the Mary Jane talking on the bed issue of Ultimate Spider-Man, too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-38696355903044442612007-10-11T15:13:00.000-07:002007-10-11T15:13:00.000-07:00The new avengers do rock. Stephen K. ChanStephen K...The new avengers do rock. <BR/><BR/>Stephen K. Chan<BR/><A HREF="http://stephen-k-chan-15.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">Stephen K. Chan</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-67031240134272242572007-10-11T12:14:00.000-07:002007-10-11T12:14:00.000-07:00I have never tried the Flip Test myself, but I thi...I have never tried the Flip Test myself, but I think there has to be some balance to a title especially over the long haul. I too, like that issue of Ultimate Spider-Man, but I didn't like it when Bendis would three consecutive issues of talking, which didn't seem to advance the story arc at all (the Hobgoblin arc leaps to mind as one where I'd finish reading and say to myself "Nothing happened? What the hell?")<BR/><BR/>I don't think there's anything wrong, as Mr Campbell noted, with multi-part stories, provided there's enough there for it to justifiably be multi-part. I don't get that feeling from multiple issues of the New Avengers arguing about which of them is really a Skrull.CalvinPitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11815632086057048846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-5980338324259068202007-10-11T06:55:00.000-07:002007-10-11T06:55:00.000-07:00Writing a screenplay? They can be frustrating to ...Writing a screenplay? They can be frustrating to the comic book fan. <BR/><BR/>In a comic, if you need a jolt, you can always throw in rocket-powered monkey ninjas and send them and your protagonist back to ninth-century Russia to build the World's Greatest Cheesecake in a desperate attempt to prevent a thousand-foot tall statue of Huggy Bear from destroying every Thursday ever. As a matter of fact, Grant Morrison's probably done that. <BR/><BR/>In a screenplay, that'd get red-flagged as "too expensive."<BR/><BR/>Do you really want to work in a medium that won't touch something as awesome as MODOK for reasons of mere money? Sure, there's fame, fortune, and the unironic use of calling everyone you meet "babe," but is it worth it to work in a MODOK-less medium?<BR/><BR/>Won't somebody think of the MODOK?Harvey Jerkwaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118848012122050416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-19397812266877996332007-10-11T04:53:00.000-07:002007-10-11T04:53:00.000-07:00As other posters have said, demanding some sort of...As other posters have said, demanding some sort of industry-wide flip-test-friendliness could only lead to the production of even blander pap than we're getting. <BR/><BR/>Everybody leafs through the pamphlets at the store, but I find that this provides a pretty unreliable measure of a comic's quality (especially if one is applying rigid criteria like the "balance" between action and dialogue).<BR/><BR/>The strength of (a member of) a creative team, internet reviews and buzz (the online equivalent, for our rather small community, of word-of-mouth), etc. provide far better clues in the neverending quest for gold nuggets in the turd pool.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-43317829972686679172007-10-10T20:39:00.000-07:002007-10-10T20:39:00.000-07:00This test is ass-backwards. It's how crap movies...This test is ass-backwards. It's how crap movies like Pearl Harbor and other Michael Bay movies are formulated: nice equal mixes of action, romance, and comedy. The result is always well-polished pabulum.<BR/><BR/>The wordy issue of Ultimate Spiderman you mentioned won plenty of awards and deserves them. It also sold just as well as all the other action issues. Luckily the editors didn't put it through the 'focus group approval' process.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07246947464570292410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-85155791252414354822007-10-10T17:57:00.000-07:002007-10-10T17:57:00.000-07:00I read comic strips in the flip book style. If t...I read comic strips in the flip book style. <BR/> <BR/>If the last panel doesn't look like it has a good punchline that'll make sense in context, count me out. PASS!<BR/><BR/>I don't like borders around all four panels. If there isn't one that's sort of floating in space, I'll read a strip that's not so constricting. PASS!<BR/><BR/>One panel, Billy blaming his latest misadventure on "Not Me?" SOLD!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11827637.post-29657046910355911702007-10-10T14:12:00.000-07:002007-10-10T14:12:00.000-07:00Unlike most of the folks here, I have to disagree ...Unlike most of the folks here, I have to disagree with Dave on this one.<BR/><BR/>I agree that decompressed storytelling can suck. And nobody likes filler.<BR/><BR/>But I like some of that talky shit. The best issues of the DeMatteis/Giffen Justice League were the ones where nothing much happened, the characters just hung around talking crap to each other.<BR/><BR/>Likewise, the hallowed Suicide Squad. It had lots of really cool action, but that's not why I loved the series; I was into SS because of Waller's talkdowns or the loopy psychanalisis in dr. LaGrieve's couch.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Hey, don't get me wrong. I like some kick in the face, no holds barred action as much as anyone else. But the talky shit can be good too. And sometimes 22 pages just isn't enough to tell a complex story and still find room for the exploding helicopters.<BR/><BR/>I mean, in the good ole' days (the 80s), some comics were pretty much "fight of the month". <BR/><BR/>There'd be a little plot and then some lamo villain shows up and there's a fight merely for the purpose of there being a fight. And that shit was lame.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com